Curse

Mumblyfish · Aug 21, 2005, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessy

Well, next time a team of n00bsters lines up for a whack job, don't come crying to me for not getting good healing anymore.

You... are aware of who you just replied to, right? Ensign has been a member of the Guild Wars community for as long as I can remember, and has always been neck-deep in the maths and reason behind balance and strategy. He knows much more about the game than you or I do - drop the attitude and listen to him.

Jessy · Aug 21, 2005, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mumblyfish

... He knows much more about the game than you or I do - drop the attitude and listen to him.

First, speak for yourself. Second, I am listening to him, I just happen to disagree.

Artemis Bladewing · Aug 21, 2005, 03:02 PM // 15:02

I played my monk through all missions in 5 days, switched to 55 monk in between did about 10% of the mission by myself and the other 70% with henches and then for those with humans it took me more then one attempt.

Now I switched to 55 mmonk in 4 days I found roughly 25 items identified for pvp and bought 30 new skills with skillpoints. This is just awesome having so much nw stuff I can test in pvp now.

This game is about skills and if u find skills to trick the system, to bad. Somehow I see everytime they're is a good build everyone wants to nerf it.

Theos · Aug 21, 2005, 03:16 PM // 15:16

I think we simply have a case of See no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil, from all those who are/support 105/55.

You don't see the problems, you won't hear about the problems, and you won't speak of the problems... last I checked alot of things came to a quick end in this manner.

As Ensign pointed out, in PvP invicimonk is a slightly different build but without NR or suicidal Strip, all those extra enchants will simply make removing Prot Bond nearly impossible, also from what I have seen shatter's damage is also reduced... so guess what two pops and they aren't dead. If NR goes, as many want it too, and nothing is done about Prot Bond, you will have supermonks everywhere and everyone will be crying about how unfair it is that invicimonks rule.
Healing seed is powerful, but I would not classify it as being as bad as Prot Bond, though I will admit it gives near invulnerability to the target with almost not delay due to recharge. This one can easily be fixed with a longer cooldown. Atleast that i my opinion on Healing Seed.

Quote:

Did you even read my post?

I like exploring, and farming, and PvPing, but when you have such limited options, for example in PvP, it kills the game. I wouldnt mind if unlocking all the skills was HARD, but in GW, its not hard, its just extremely repetitive. You have to do the same thing, exactly over and over 3 times, which is boring, not hard. ANet said this game was about skill, not time spent... then how the hell can anyone PvP without spending hundreds of hours doing the same repetitive stuff?

My apologize, I misread the the post I thought you were refering more directly as it being a bore and not that you actually enjoy it. Again my apologize for misreading.

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 21, 2005, 03:19 PM // 15:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessy

It's not a question of soloing UW or not, after all, it's the complainers that demanded to

* nerf the monk skill set or specific monk skills

and/or

* place enchantment whackers in all areas suitable for solo monk builds.

So let's call it what it is, this is not about soloing UW, this is about monks going out on their own ANYWHERE.

Incorrect. Its not about monks being able to solo at all, I play a monk, and I don't care to see ALL ability to solo anywhere removed from the class. Its about the fact that protbond is a broken, exploited skill, and its also about the fact that monks are the only class who can solo smite runs. So yea, it is about UW because if it werent about UW why does greneth's statue practically crawl with "monkroaches" (as i've taken to calling them) every time we are within 1 win of having favor?? Don't try to tell me that all those monks are salivating to get into UW to solo for fun, Trust me, soloing the smite run gets old as anything else does. Its the financial gain/effort applied equation that draws the "monkroaches". Otherwise they wouldnt be there, hell, otherwise i'd wager 80% of 'em wouldn't even be monks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by artemis bladewing

this game is about skills and if u find skills to trick the system, to bad. Somehow I see everytime they're is a good build everyone wants to nerf it

Yep, but some people dont need to "trick the system" to be successful... besides if you can't understand the difference between a good build, and the blatant abuse of a broken skill, then clearly I've no need to respond to you any further than this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

hit the nail on the head. The op lost all credibility by saying they soloed too. I don't get why they would want it nerfed. Unless they got all the gold they could carry and now want to prevent others from doing the same thing.

Again, another question I've already addressed. I certainly do not lose credability by saying that I've soloed a few times. I had experimented with it when bored and had a pretty crappy, but workable, solo build for UW, then the 105 goes all public and since I had the things on hand to make it I did to see how much easier it was to work than the one I had made. I soloed a few times for some quick cash when I needed it, but I certainly am not currently maxed out on money, and I could really care less if the UW soloing was canned because its not like money is all that hard to come by in this game. So again, It has nothing to do with trying to prevent anyone else from making money, its about the fact that the skill is broken and exploited to hell and back and needs to be fixed. I know it tears you up that you might have to find a new cashcow, But I cant care about that.

ManaCraft · Aug 21, 2005, 03:29 PM // 15:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

I still don't understand why people say it's unbalanced.

Hm, so people taking a mere 2 damage per hit from level ~30 monsters doesn't seem wrong to you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

The only 'unbalanced' part I see is that people seem to have a somewhat hint of jealousy or hate of the bandwagon

That's right. Everyone who would criticise protective bond is either jealous or out to wreck the game for everyone else.

For some odd reason, people who only care about getting rich always assume that's what everyone else cares about too. I've played GW since release, and I've never farmed once, nor will I ever. I have all the resources needed to make my own 55 monk if I wanted, and then some, but I don't intend to spend my spare time preparing to have fun, which is what farming is really all about. You play through the same area hundreds of times, with the same skills, collecting the same loot, to afford what you want. Grind in a bottle.

Ideally A.Net would wake up and make it more profitable for players to play (or "farm", if you must call it that) in groups rather than by themselves. That, more than anything, is what is needed here. Then we could talk about all sorts of nice things, like raising the drop rates to an acceptable level so that you'd actually get the items you desire through normal gameplay, rather than grinding through the same area over and over again to be able to afford them from the trader.

Imagine that - getting the items you want without having to farm for them! Oh my, what a glorious world that would be. I suspect most farmers aren't even aware that this is actually a viable alternative. Most players have just been spoonfed with games that support the need to farm for so long that they resist a departure from that mindset on instinct.

ManaCraft

Jessy · Aug 21, 2005, 03:33 PM // 15:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by ManaCraft

... Imagine that - getting the items you want without having to farm for them! ...

--> XP/skill points

ManaCraft · Aug 21, 2005, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessy

--> XP/skill points

XP and skill points aren't items.

ManaCraft

shinrisen · Aug 21, 2005, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Point is, if the 55/105 build is so evil and an "exploit", why the heck would Anet wait this long? They could've simply changed the Protective Bond spell (so it can't consume just 1 energy) and voila - the build just lost most of it's power.

It comes odd to me that Anet insist on keeping the build for some time until everyone is using it (strange that people want to farm solo with the drops nowadays) and then nerf it afterwards.

And Manacraft, "getting the items without having to farm for them" isn't just about getting items. It's about farming.
I suspect I'm not the only one who likes the hunt for rare items (not just in this game, but in any multiplayer hack n slash/rpg), just cause it's FUN. More fun for me then playing every mission over and over again (something Anet probably wants everyone to do... at least they couldve build a random lvl generator).

I played this game for less then two months and already grow tired of it. What is there to play for after you finished the game with 2 different builds? Even if item farming WAS supported by Anet, what would we farm for? An extra +1% dmg mod on that rare Fellblade? A -skill- point?

Anet made the game so 'accessible' (sp?) to everyone they forgot to think outside of the 1-2 month span. A level cap of 20, no power items, a rock/paper/scissors PvP system. What use are adding extra quests when it makes no sense to do them (other then the story, and perhaps meeting a new NPC or something?)..

I don't understand why you would release an online (they even call it MMORPG) game that doesn't support competition (except for the (imho shitty) PvP system).

I know I bought the wrong game, I know the game is largely based upon PvP, but I personally don't find much joy in a seperate PvE/PvP enviroment, especially if the PvP is the way it is. PvE also starts to get boring because of reasons stated.... I really hope the summer update is going to do something crazy with this game (without nerfing everything and making some players extremely rich, others extremely broke) that will make it enjoyable once more. Hurray to powergaming.

KamikazeChicken · Aug 21, 2005, 03:49 PM // 15:49

>.> I don't understand why everyone called nerf on game release. If people could still farm Giants/Ettins for massive runes, prices would have stayed cheaper. If people could still farm for zomg rare weapons, which have no advantage over the collector items I use, prices wouldn't have skyrocketed. Wealth in GW is completely meaningless, so why people complained is beyond me.

Keure · Aug 21, 2005, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sekkira

I still don't understand why people say it's unbalanced. The only half decent argument I've seen in favour of it being unbalanced is that "It forces you to bring enchantment strippers". Come on, seriously. You want to fight a proper team with a protection monk and no enchantment strippers? Good bloody luck.

The idea put forth:

"An enchantment is overpowered if the only answer to its perpetual presence is removing it."

What you (and others) are saying:

"But you can remove it. Therefore it's not overpowered."

Your response does not follow.

If you're going to argue, I suggest arguing that there are *non-removal* ways around prot bond (and backing up that idea with relevant information).

With that being said, I agree that prot bond needs some adjustment, especially given the status of enchantment removal vs. mass enchantments (removal is weak save for NR - once NR is nerfed enchantment stacking will be everywhere without a corresponding buff in enchantment removal). Healing Seed is also ridiculously good (triggering on every bit of damage, triggering on zero damage, healing for alot per hit in an area, stays on for a long time in relation to recharge rate, etc.)

pintpointfive · Aug 21, 2005, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Protective Bond is one of the few enchantments that cannot be played around.

Life Stealing... It isn't considered damage by ANet... I got hit for 6 damage and then 46 life steal by something because of Shadow Strike.. I'm sure Vampiric Gaze/Touch works the same way. 105bane anyone?

TopGun · Aug 21, 2005, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Alright, I want a 105 monk. I probably don't have the cash, but I'll get it. I tried to create a soloable character with my Blood Necro, but it really had too many flaws. I'm going to be honest with you: The majority of net people suck, period. So when I picked up the game, I did want to solo a fair bit of it. I want to play PvE, but I want to be able to find the few birds of my feather who are actually intelligent enough to play with. That means it'll take time, and a lot of effort, to find a guild full of reasonable people- which I've done. But it's a small guild, and I also play off-peak times, so I need to be able to solo.

Keure · Aug 21, 2005, 04:17 PM // 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessy

I cannot believe this, what is wrong with you people? Sure, go ahead, nerf the monk out of existence, reduce the skill set ... better yet, take away all the skills ...

that should do it.

Nerfing isn't meant to "reduce the skill set", although that's what badly executed/badly designed nerf calls do (nerfing something too much so that it sucks).

Understand the following:

1) Skill rebalancing, as suggested by the high-end PvP community, is done to benefit PvP as a whole by making a more diverse set of strategies viable. A more diverse set of viable strategies makes gameplay better.
2) Nerfing is the easiest way to adjust skills, as a nerf has the least effect on existing balance between other skills. Alternatives (like buffing everything else) require more work and may screw up existing balance.
3) The Monk, as a class, will never be phased out of existence, assuming the designers know what they're doing. Healing is designed to be a counter to damage, and monks are the primary and most efficient class to deal out healing. If healing isn't adequate to counter damage, then the entire system falls apart (won't happen if the designers know what they're doing). Thus, Monks will always have a place on a build, either in a PvE PUG or an organized team build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jessy

PS: Oh, and by the way, assuming this proposed monk nerfing takes place, remind me why I should pay for GW Chapter 2 ...

...you're not going to buy the next expansion if some overpowered skills are nerfed? I'm, um, not sure how to address this...

ManaCraft · Aug 21, 2005, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinrisen

Point is, if the 55/105 build is so evil and an "exploit", why the heck would Anet wait this long?

Good question. I have no idea, and I am thoroughly dissatisfied with that fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinrisen

And Manacraft, "getting the items without having to farm for them" isn't just about getting items. It's about farming. I suspect I'm not the only one who likes the hunt for rare items (not just in this game, but in any multiplayer hack n slash/rpg), just cause it's FUN.

Feel free to, as long as everyone else isn't forced to do the same in order to gain access to those items.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinrisen

Anet made the game so 'accessible' (sp?) to everyone they forgot to think outside of the 1-2 month span. A level cap of 20, no power items, a rock/paper/scissors PvP system.

GW caters to the casual player. That is why you see such a flat power curve, and no "power items".

It's an all too common way of thinking really. Where are my power items? If they aren't there, why am I playing the game? It stems from the flawed premise that the more rare an item is, the more powerful it must be. Rare items are not required to be more powerful, only more unique. In that respect I don't blame you for getting tired of GW, since it fails utterly as far as unique item properties go, despite having the flat power curve to support them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shinrisen

I don't understand why you would release an online (they even call it MMORPG)

Actually, that's precisely what they don't call it. Guild wars is, at least according to A.Net, a CORPG (competitive online roleplaying game).

ManaCraft

Sayshina · Aug 21, 2005, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Sonya

I'm going to play both, get two sets of armor one for healing, the other for 105/55 build so I can peacefully go play in UW/FOW without having to play and group with idiots.

I started wanting to play a smiting monk almost a year ago. I did play one for a weekend during beta's, but as of release my monk is still only lvl 12 or so. I really liked that 105/55 idea, and it made what I've always wanted to play workable solo, also something I demand of my builds. I even started to alter my toon to take advantage of it.

But then I realized this game is dead. I havn't played her in about a month, and wandering onto this forum once in a while is about all the effort I can manage to put into this game.

If they would give us UAS, I'd immediatly get back into the game. I'm not saying I'd stay forever, that would depend on how many other decent players came back (you do know they've all left, don't you?). But at least the game would stand a chance.

Of course, they will NEVER give us UAS. Hell, it doesn't look like they're doing much of anything to this game anymore. Seen Gaile Grey around lately? Every day it looks more and more like they're all working on some other project.

Andy_M · Aug 21, 2005, 05:41 PM // 17:41

Yeah, like an expansion maybe ?

Elistan Theocrat · Aug 21, 2005, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sayshina

If they would give us UAS, I'd immediatly get back into the game. I'm not saying I'd stay forever, that would depend on how many other decent players came back (you do know they've all left, don't you?).

Of course, they will NEVER give us UAS. Hell, it doesn't look like they're doing much of anything to this game anymore. Seen Gaile Grey around lately? Every day it looks more and more like they're all working on some other project.

Nice, way to say that everyone who hasn't left isn't a decent player. You do realize thats what you've said, dont you? Rest assured, if thats your attitude I for one wont miss you at all if you never come back and never post again. Furthermore, this thread is not another chat about UAS, so take that moan elsewhere. I'm even for UAS and the Seperation of PvE/PvP and I dont care to see more UAS whining on my thread. Particularly after being told I'm not a decent player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopGun

Alright, I want a 105 monk. I probably don't have the cash, but I'll get it. I tried to create a soloable character with my Blood Necro, but it really had too many flaws. I'm going to be honest with you: The majority of net people suck, period. So when I picked up the game, I did want to solo a fair bit of it. I want to play PvE, but I want to be able to find the few birds of my feather who are actually intelligent enough to play with. That means it'll take time, and a lot of effort, to find a guild full of reasonable people- which I've done. But it's a small guild, and I also play off-peak times, so I need to be able to solo.

nobody needs to be able to solo UW. I've already addressed this excuse that putting up with other players is so horrible. You dont have to tell me that the majority of net people suck, but how do you buy an online game and expect to spend more time soloing than anything else?? Seriously, save up and wait on Oblivion, then you can solo all you want. That having been said, You dont have to have the 105 to solo as a monk and I'd love to see one 105 "monkroach" soloing anywhere but UW when we've got favor. It doesnt happen because whatever excuses the "monkroaches" want to throw out there, greed is the motivation.

Commodore_Mcawesome · Aug 21, 2005, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Meh, even if protective bond is nerfed and monks aren't the best at soloing anymore, I bet you that within a week everyone will be building a soloing necro or something. It's only natural for people who have beaten the game to want to try to be the best at something or try something new - if the super monk build is nerfed, someone will just think up another way to do it. If Anet REALLY wanted to put a stop to that kind of thing, they'd release some new content. More to do = less time spent farming and thinking up builds to do it more efficiently. I swear, I never even considered farming until I had already beaten the game twice and it had become a big yawn-fest. JMHO.

KamikazeChicken · Aug 21, 2005, 06:14 PM // 18:14

I have a 105 monk and I don't usually end up in UW, thank you very much! UW is boring, and I have no reason to sit there. Eternal bows/shields and Storm bows are worthless, and I have no use for ecto anymore. I tossed all the Eternal/Storm crap I found to lvl 3s in Ascalon, and the ecto I found helped a guildie buy the rest of his set.

The 105 build more than compinsated me for the 8k it took to make, but I havn't been in UW for 2 weeks. Now that my guildie is done collecting the rest of his Ecto he couldn't grab when they did the vendor reset, I started playing with griffons for awhile. Today I got bored of griffons so I'm back to a pure healing monk.

Not every 105 build is in it for gold; something so common and worthless can't be the driving force behind it all.